Jennifer Breheny Wallace: I shudder after I hear folks bragging about perfectionism or saying perfectionism could be good; wholesome striving, striving for excellence is nice. Perfectionism? I simply don’t see any good that comes of it.
Samantha Laine Perfas: Many individuals maintain themselves to extraordinarily excessive requirements, however when the scales tip to the pursuit of perfection, it can lead to nervousness, despair, and different critical psychological well being points.
So how do we all know once we’ve gone too far in attempting to do our greatest?
Welcome to “Harvard Considering,” a podcast the place the lifetime of the thoughts meets on a regular basis life.
Right this moment I’m joined by:
Michaela Kerrissey: I’m Michaela Kerrissey. I’m an affiliate professor of administration on the Harvard T.H. Chan College of Public Well being.
Laine Perfas: She research how organizations and groups innovate and enhance, and can also be an alum of the Harvard Enterprise College. Then:
Ellen Hendriksen: Ellen Hendriksen. I’m a medical assistant professor at Boston College’s Heart for Nervousness and Associated Problems.
Laine Perfas: She did post-doctoral work at Harvard Medical College and is the creator of “Find out how to Be Sufficient: Self-Acceptance for Self-Critics and Perfectionists.” And eventually:
Wallace: Jennifer Wallace. I’m a journalist and creator of two books: The primary one was “By no means Sufficient,” and the forthcoming, “Mattering: The Secret to Constructing a Lifetime of Deep Connection and Goal.”
Laine Perfas: She graduated from Harvard School in 1994.
And I’m Samantha Laine Perfas, your host and a author for The Harvard Gazette. Right this moment we’ll speak about perfectionism and the advantages of accepting once we’re lower than excellent.
Ellen, in your guide you argue perfectionism itself is an imperfect phrase or form of a misnomer. Might you clarify?
Hendriksen: Perfectionism is commonly considered a need to be excellent, a striving to don’t have any errors, no flaws. However in my medical work, I’ve actually discovered the alternative to be true. Nobody ever is available in and identifies as a perfectionist. As an alternative, folks are available in and say, “I really feel like a failure. I really feel like I’m falling behind. I really feel like I’m letting everyone down.” So the way in which it manifests in my expertise is that it does come throughout as by no means feeling adequate.
“Nobody ever is available in and identifies as a perfectionist. As an alternative, folks are available in and say, ‘I really feel like a failure.’”
Wallace: So the way in which I take into consideration perfectionism is the assumption that my self-worth is tied to being excellent, in order that I solely be ok with myself after I’m excellent. And after I fail or expertise setbacks, then I really feel like these failures are an indictment of my price.
Kerrissey: What I actually respect about each of those definitions is that they get this concept that in some ways, perfectionism is that this mindset that we carry to the work that we’re doing and to how we really feel concerning the work that we’re doing. I like that — as a part of how we give it some thought — as a result of it implies that we even have a alternative and that there’s some discretion that we are able to have. And that, I believe, is releasing.
Laine Perfas: Perfectionism manifests in numerous methods for various folks. What does it appear to be in actuality, and why is it so prevalent?
Wallace: Once we’re eager about perfectionism, researchers who research it have checked out three sorts of perfectionism. So there’s the self-oriented perfectionism, which is requiring perfection of oneself. Then there’s other-oriented perfectionism, which is needing others to be excellent. After which there’s one thing known as socially prescribed perfectionism. And that’s believing that others require us to be excellent. And what Tom Curran, a researcher within the UK, has discovered is that over the previous few many years, there was a 33 % rise in socially prescribed perfectionism. That’s the concept society is demanding of me to be excellent. And one of many issues that I usually say to younger folks after I discuss to them, and I believe it’s a helpful train for all of us, is that the subsequent time you are feeling such as you’re not sufficient, whether or not it’s in your cellphone or watching one thing on Netflix or no matter it’s, suppose for a second — who out there may be profiting off of creating me really feel like I’m not sufficient? Each time I say that to younger folks, they love the thought of the peek behind the capitalist curtain. There are people who find themselves making some huge cash off of attempting to persuade us that we should be excellent with a purpose to be worthy.
“There are people who find themselves making some huge cash off of attempting to persuade us that we should be excellent with a purpose to be worthy.”
Hendriksen: Yeah, perfectionism is a type of unusual occurrences the place it comes from inside. There’s undoubtedly genetic analysis displaying that perfectionism could be handed down. It could come from the way in which we have been raised. We are able to come out of any household perfectionistic, but it surely’s been discovered that there are 4 type of forms of households: these are the snowplow helicopter dad and mom; households the place love is contingent upon efficiency; dad and mom who’re perfectionistic themselves; after which additionally type of a chaotic, dramatic, erratic sort of household the place youngsters may double down on perfectionism as a way of management. Nevertheless, to Jennifer’s level, perfectionism not solely comes from inside; it might additionally come from throughout us, from this capitalist surroundings that makes us really feel like now we have to carry out and obtain and eat to ever greater ranges, simply to be ample as an individual.
Kerrissey: Additionally these units of experiences that all of us have early in life, even outdoors of our household — within the classroom, in our first jobs that we get, our first internships — the place we be taught actually rapidly a few set of expectations {that a} group has about what efficiency seems like, what worth seems like, and what it seems prefer to be sufficient and to be good. And within the analysis that I do, which is generally targeted in workplaces, one of many issues that at all times strikes me each time is simply how rapidly folks decide up on what these expectations and norms are. Inside a couple of minutes, folks get a way of what it’s like round right here to make a mistake, ask a query that any individual thinks you should have identified the reply to. These environments, even outdoors of the broad capitalist society, simply these environments that we set in, teams that we kind, are actually sturdy and have a extremely massive influence on how folks really feel concerning the penalties or the advantages of claiming what’s on their thoughts, admitting a mistake. And I believe that’s actually highly effective and palpable every single day in each assembly now we have, and we stock that with us.
Laine Perfas: Perfectionism will also be actually harmful. Might you discuss concerning the destructive methods we see it displaying up?
Kerrissey: One of many issues that we see in work groups is that groups the place persons are striving for perfectionism and it turns into the tradition of the crew, that it results in burnout quite a bit sooner, and that we see folks must give up their jobs and stroll away from positions that will in any other case be actually useful to them and possibly essential for his or her revenue. The prices in that respect are additionally fairly excessive for folks.
Hendriksen: By way of diagnosable problems, perfectionism is de facto on the coronary heart of various diagnoses like social nervousness, like consuming problems, like OCD; we see it quite a bit in despair. We see it in loads of treatment-resistant nervousness. And what connects all of these is that if we drill down there and discover a basis of perfectionism, it’s usually primarily based on a flawed notion. There’s a felt sense of inadequacy that retains us separated from others. There’s this concept that now we have to work very exhausting to keep away from discovering ourselves in a state of affairs that will reveal that inadequacy to others. That may be a difficult perception to hold round.
Wallace: In my interviews with households, one of many unlucky threads that I heard was that the high-achieving youngster was presenting as excellent till it was too late, till they died by suicide. And that’s as a result of they may not attain out for assist. Perfectionism can get in the way in which of {our relationships}; it might get in the way in which of our psychological well being; it might get in the way in which of our lives. It is vitally critical. And I shudder after I hear folks bragging about perfectionism or saying perfectionism could be good; wholesome striving, striving for excellence is nice perfectionism, I simply don’t see any good that comes of it.
Laine Perfas: Jennifer, in your guide “By no means Sufficient” — which I like by the way in which — you speak about achievement strain, and I believe it might perhaps come from well-meaning dad and mom and academics, however it might create turmoil inside younger folks. Might you speak about that just a little bit?
Wallace: I’m not anti-pressure, simply to place it on the market first. I consider in excessive achievement. I get loads of pleasure from reaching. I would like my youngsters to expertise that pleasure. The place achievement turns into poisonous is when our sense of self is so wrapped up in our achievements that we solely be ok with ourselves once we obtain; and once we don’t, we are able to spiral. What I discovered within the analysis after I was these high-achieving youngsters and searching on the achievement strain that they have been beneath, I went looking for the youngsters who have been doing nicely, regardless of the strain, to see what they’d in frequent, and what I discovered to be the antidote to perfectionism is this concept of mattering. Mattering shouldn’t be my thought. It’s been studied for the reason that Eighties, however it’s this sense that I’m valued for who I’m deep at my core, away from my achievements, and importantly, that I’m relied on so as to add significant worth again at dwelling, in school, within the wider world. And so the youngsters I met who have been in these high-achieving environments, a excessive stage of mattering acted as a form of protecting protect. It didn’t imply these youngsters didn’t expertise setbacks and disappointments, however they weren’t an indictment of their price.
“The antidote to perfectionism is this concept of mattering … this sense that I’m valued for who I’m deep at my core, away from my achievements.”
Kerrissey: This distinction, Jennifer, that you just carry up in that it’s not about setting targets apart or letting efficiency go, and the concept we wish to try to attain nice issues in our lives, that we are able to truly nonetheless try this even with out perfectionism. In our analysis, we take a look at this idea of psychological security, which is this concept that we set climates in teams and in organizations and in our lives round whether or not or not you’ll be able to step ahead, strive one thing out that you just don’t know methods to do, admit a mistake, and that you just received’t be punished or penalized or have it held in opposition to you. And that’s this sort of local weather that we are able to create that’s psychologically secure, the place folks can take dangers and nonetheless matter. One of many ways in which it most frequently will get misinterpreted is that it implies that we must always prioritize consolation, being good, having climates the place you won’t say what’s in your thoughts since you’re attempting to guard how everyone feels. However there’s an actual distinction to be made about consolation and the protection to strive one thing out and to not should be excellent on a regular basis. What we’re actually attempting to do shouldn’t be develop consolation zones, however to assist all of us to spend extra time and be extra snug in that discomfort zone.
Hendriksen: The notion of not being anti-pressure or anti-achievement is de facto essential as a result of, at the very least clinically, typically the recommendation for folks with perfectionism, it comes throughout as it’s a must to decrease your requirements, and that may be actually exhausting to listen to for any individual with perfectionism as a result of adequate doesn’t resonate if it’s one thing from which we derive our worth. We’re not going to accept subpar or mediocre efficiency if that implies that we’re subpar or mediocre.
I respect that we are able to attempt to sort out that by conserving excessive requirements but in addition giving folks some room and permission to make errors and ask questions, and to only take care of the inevitable blips and bloops of life which can be going to come back alongside.
Kerrissey: If an enormous a part of this isn’t to decrease our requirements, when does it begin to tip into that destructive house? What are some issues you could look out for? I’ve discovered that perfectionism is commonly considered a private drawback, but it surely’s additionally an interpersonal drawback, that it comes throughout as a way that now we have to earn love, neighborhood, and belonging by being good at issues, by having an excellent efficiency. Within the remedy room, I preserve a watch out for this sense that now we have to earn our means into friendships or different relationships. Take into consideration why your pals are your pals: Are you associates with your pals due to their efficiency? Most likely not. Extra probably you’re associates with your pals due to how you are feeling once you’re with them. There’s a way of being understood or belonging. And most significantly, I believe, not having to carry out in any respect. One of many telltale indicators is avoidance, avoidance of one thing that you just wish to strive, one thing that you just wish to put your palms up for, and also you don’t do it since you’re afraid in case you’re going to strive it out and never be excellent, that will probably be a failure for you. I see that occur on a regular basis in my school rooms. The purpose of being right here, the purpose of going by means of our academic system is to be taught what it is advisable to be taught to have the influence that you just wish to have in your life. If perfectionism is driving you to keep away from that issues which can be just a little exhausting that you just won’t be excellent at, it’s holding you again from reaching the broader goal in your life.
“One of many telltale indicators is avoidance of one thing that you just wish to strive … and also you don’t do it since you’re afraid in case you’re going to strive it out and never be excellent, that will probably be a failure for you.”
Wallace: Different indicators are destructive self-talk. Procrastination is one other large telltale signal of perfectionism. To choose up on what Michaela stated, I bought this nice quote from a baby psychologist, Lisa Damour, who stated {that a} colleague of hers instructed her this as soon as: The distinction between a 91 and a 98 is a life. And so once you’re eager about the main target of the place you’re placing your vitality, usually with perfectionism, it’s about self-protection, and that’s truly what’s holding us again. What I see within the analysis was that, truly, it was the perfectionist who would maintain themselves again as a result of their sense of price was so twisted up that they couldn’t threat a failure. They may not threat that.
Laine Perfas: I’ve a confession. I’m somebody who’s scuffling with perfectionism and I really feel like it’s simply an ongoing follow to strive to concentrate on after I’m falling into these cycles. However provided that and reflecting on it, I used to be attempting to determine: What job is perfectionism doing in my life? Why is it that I preserve turning to it regardless that I can really feel the nervousness, I can really feel the stress? Why is it exhausting to let it go?
Wallace: To present your self a break right here, I believe that we’re all responding to the messages of our wider tradition. There was this nice theologian, Henri Nouwen, who talks concerning the three nice lies of our tradition. And people lies are: I’m what I’ve; I’m what I do; I’m what folks say or take into consideration me. If you’re continually contending with the nice lies in our tradition, in fact you’re going to wish to shield with perfectionism. For me, step one is contextualizing these tendencies and never personalizing them a lot. Take a look at them. Take a look at the messages that you’re receiving from the broader tradition and provides your self some grace.
Kerrissey: I like that concept of grace as a result of even for myself, as I do self-describe as a recovering perfectionist, I can get into these odd spirals which can be very ironic, the place in attempting to handle my perfectionism, I get weirdly perfectionist about it and that I observe my very own conduct and I’m like, “Ugh. Oh, there I am going. I’m being a perfectionist once more.” After which I additional do the destructive self-talk, and that’s not what the reply is right here, clearly. One of many reframes that I’ve discovered useful in my very own life and in addition in being a mother round this — I’ve just a little daughter, and dealing along with her has been fairly useful to me on it, in that I’ve been specializing in this reframe from perfectionism to mastery. The place we don’t should be ashamed of the drive to be taught one thing actually deeply, to strive our hardest to contribute worth. That drive, after I see it in her, I see there’s an actual magnificence in it and one thing that I respect and applaud and have a good time, and I don’t wish to inform her to not have that or to really feel unhealthy about having that. I wish to inform her to maintain that target mastering one thing that’s exhausting and gives you satisfaction and provides you the sense – Jennifer used, you used the phrase “mattering.” I believe that’s an attractive phrase for it. To channel all of that vitality into the great, productive factor that it may be in our lives, to make a lifetime of that means. Sam, for you, after I see you inform that story, I believe a part of the rationale you’re not letting it go is also that you recognize there’s something good in that drive, and may we seize that?
Hendriksen: What I’ve seen is that I, and many individuals who battle with perfectionism, do that factor known as perfectionistic self-presentation, the place we present what’s going nicely and we have a tendency to cover what’s not going nicely. We put our greatest foot ahead, however we disguise the mess. However one place the place that may backfire is that then we come throughout as superhuman or unrelatable or intimidating, and that retains us remoted and disconnected. And so one factor that we are able to do to attempt to reconnect or to attempt to present a number of the mess if we wish to give it some thought in a productive means, then we are able to — I do know vulnerability has change into type of a buzzword, but when we give it some thought as a willingness to disclose ideas, actions, and feelings that may lead to criticism or rejection, however take a leap of religion that they received’t, we are able to consider vulnerability, actually susceptible, as being in danger. Then by letting folks intentionally see a number of the mess, it does two issues. It alerts, I belief you. And it additionally alerts, we’re the identical. And belief and equality are the foundations of any wholesome relationship.
Wallace: I like that. There’s analysis known as the Lovely Mess Impact, and it’s the concept we expect we want our lives to be excellent earlier than we attain out to folks, and what the analysis finds is that it’s within the messiness of our lives that we’re capable of make that connection. You additionally introduced up, Michaela, about having a daughter, and desirous to mannequin good conduct. I’ve a daughter. My daughter’s now 18 years outdated, however when she was younger, I used to be noticing perfectionistic tendencies and so I wrote an article for the Wall Road Journal, and naturally I discovered that it was my modeling that was main her to those perfectionistic tendencies. And so I labored actually exhausting on myself, but in addition dwelling my life out loud in order that she might hear my self-talk. If I’m working exhausting on an article, on a deadline, I’ll shut my laptop computer in entrance of her and I’ll say, “OK, Jenny, that’s sufficient for the day, you’ve completed your work. That’s sufficient for the day.” So, actually modeling this compassionate self-talk after I make a mistake, after I want to present myself grace and a break. I like that you’re modeling change out loud for her. That may be a highly effective strategy to get into our self-criticism or destructive self-talk and attempt to push again on it just a little bit.
Hendriksen: One thing that I additionally love to do is to attempt to pull the lever of acceptance. Along with altering my self-critical discuss is to attempt to change my relationship to my self-critical thought, as a result of it’s usually inconceivable to do away with it, per se. Self-criticism is the guts of human self-regulation. We criticize ourselves with a purpose to test ourselves, to ensure our conduct stays in line, make sure that we keep a part of the group. I simply realized that my mind, and the brains of loads of the folks I work with, are simply wired to be just a little bit extra self-critical. And so when inevitably that begins going, then simply chalk that as much as, oh, that is what occurs. That is how I’m wired. That offers me permission to deal with it type of just like the music at a espresso store. It’s there, it’s within the background, however I don’t have to bounce alongside.
Kerrissey: I met somebody as soon as who had this nice trick that they used the place they principally had created a personality. It was just a little gnome, and so they had just a little beard and a humorous little hat. And each time they might hear that self-critical thought in their very own mind, they might simply image that little gnome sitting on their shoulder saying it. And in so doing, whereas they didn’t do away with that voice, they type of have been capable of put it as an alternative by seeing it, visualizing it, giving it a hat, after which letting it go.
Hendriksen: To not get too educational about it, this has a reputation and it’s known as cognitive diffusion. And it might do a few issues for us. One is that it simply lessens the facility of the self-criticism, but it surely additionally offers us some energy again. If we’re simply passively responding to all of the ideas our mind makes, that places us in a really low energy place. If we are able to have some affect over our thought, to type of play with it, to have some enjoyable with it, to perhaps make it just a little irreverent or humorous, that places us in a a lot greater energy place over our ideas and provides us some extra company.
Wallace: One of many issues that makes perfectionism so brittle, is the concept reaching out for assistance is an admission that you’re not excellent. And what we all know from many years’ price of resilience analysis is that our resilience rests essentially on the depth and assist of {our relationships}. If you’re holding again from asking for assist since you don’t need a peek behind your excellent facade, that’s the place we are able to get into loads of bother. And one of many issues that has helped is the concept after I don’t attain out for assist, not solely do I deny myself the assist I want and deserve, I additionally deny my buddy the prospect of being a helper, of sending him or her the sign that I belief them, that I belief their kindness and their knowledge, they matter to me. So if we might consider asking for assist much less as a weak point or an inconvenience, and extra as an act of generosity, of telling somebody in our life that they matter a lot to us that we’re asking them for assist.
Laine Perfas: I wish to carry up an concept that has been floated, which is the a part of perfectionism that may additionally make it tough to be at peace once you fail to do one thing otherwise you don’t do it to the extent that you desire to. How will we settle for not simply that clearly we’re going to fail typically, however that failure might additionally profit us in some methods?
Kerrissey: I believe that’s nice framing, Sam, for this as a result of not solely is it that we are able to have extra acceptance of failure, there may be most likely ample room for us to have a good time failure far more than we do. And that always if we don’t know methods to do one thing, you’ve by no means completed it earlier than or it’s actually advanced, it’s actually exhausting, and we strive it and we fail, it’s one thing to be celebrated as a result of we’ve discovered. Once we research teams and groups and we see them at work, groups that put aside time to have a good time their failures in the long run carry out higher, and the analysis on that’s clear. And the reason being that they be taught a lot quicker than the teams that don’t strive it out, don’t fail, and don’t have a good time these failures.
Kerrissey: I believe you hit on the purpose, that with our failures it’s the social assist that will get us by means of. So once you fail in a crew, it’s the folks reminding you that you just matter it doesn’t matter what.
Hendriksen: Simply to echo the social part, I believe failure may give us the prospect to find that our belonging shouldn’t be contingent upon efficiency. So for instance, I used to be working with knowledgeable musician who misplaced an audition, and his knee-jerk response was to imagine that his colleagues simply wouldn’t respect him anymore, that his efficiency was what tied him to them and he was capable of uncover that not solely did his colleagues certainly nonetheless like and respect him, however that the sense of neighborhood and the liking got here not from what occurred on one worst day, however what he did every single day in that neighborhood. Perfectionism tends to be actually all or nothing. And so one thing that I’ve discovered helpful is to attempt to take my pondering from both/or to each/and. We generally is a good mother who often loses our mood. We generally is a sensible one that doesn’t at all times know the reply. We generally is a succesful one that typically screws issues up. We are able to retain that general sense of our personal competency and adequacy and create some room for the inevitable exceptions that life goes to throw at us.
Wallace: To go even additional on the social buffering of perfectionism, if you’ll. Since studying about this concept of mattering — and mattering issues all through the lifespan — I simply co-authored a working paper with the Harvard Heart on the Creating Little one about early childhood and the event of mattering. And it issues up till we take our final breath. However what I’ll say is, as a tradition, we aren’t feeding this have to matter. This can be a elementary human have to really feel valued and to have a chance so as to add worth. And once we don’t meet this want, one of many uncomfortable side effects is that this perfectionism, that perhaps if I’m excellent, I’ll matter. So what I might love to supply to anyone listening, which is an train I attempt to do in my very own life, very imperfectly, to be trustworthy, is I attempt to think about everybody I meet, together with strangers on the road, carrying an indication round their neck saying, “Inform me, do I matter?” We are able to all reply that query with kindness, with compassion, and to me, if we might, as an alternative of feeling like we’re pit in opposition to one another on this hyper-individualistic tradition that we discover ourselves in, if we might return and recenter {our relationships} round mattering, I believe that may be a means of buffering in opposition to the socially prescribed perfectionism that has been on the rise.
There’s a resolution, there may be an antidote, and it’s mattering.
Laine Perfas: Thanks all for becoming a member of me for this actually nice dialog at present.
Wallace: Thanks for having us.
Kerrissey: Thanks.
Hendriksen: Thanks a lot. This was enjoyable.
Laine Perfas: Thanks for listening. To see a transcript of this episode and to search out our different episodes, go to harvard.edu/pondering. This episode was hosted and produced by me, Samantha Laine Perfas, with modifying and manufacturing assist from Sarah Lamodi and extra modifying by Ryan Mulcahy, Paul Makishima, and Max Larkin. Unique music and sound design by Noel Flatt. Produced by Harvard College. Copyright 2025.
